 |
| Jewish leaders condemn hanging of black-faced Purim doll, Forward |
In any case, the real hate is in the comments section. There you can read comments like the following:
"The Catholic Church is satanic"
"Polish Death Camps"
"Poles live on Jewish property"
"Nazis required Polish help for murder. "
Shaking my head.
Yes, I get it that this effigy has stereotypical Jewish features, and I get it that those features are a problem, and I wish this were not the case.
But clearly neither World Israel News nor the folks posting in the comments section is pursuing respectful dialogue with Poles, and the folks in the comments section are using this event in a small town whose name they can't even be bothered to spell correctly to create, and bash, another effigy: The Brute Polak.
Some pointed out that Orthodox Jews create effigies on Purim, and that some of those have been controversial, including blackface effigies and effigies of Israeli soldiers.
I would *never* exploit those questionable effigies to bash Jews or to spread stereotypes about Jews. and I beg my Jewish brothers and sisters to reconsider their own exploitation of the beating Judas custom, that survives in small towns whose names the World Israel News can't even spell, to reconsider their approach to criticisms of their Polish brothers and sisters.
The custom is also covered in The Times of Israel where, in the comments section, a Polish man wrote, "A stupid and primitive Christian tradition from barbaric Medieval times. And those horrible people participating in this stipid event. And I am sure it has some antisemitic background. I am ashamed as a Pole. Catholic Church probably was and still is main cause of antisemitism in Poland... look at those little kids beating that Judas doll... they were taught hate... and why? Because of stupid Christian tradition.... As Marx said - religion is an opium for people."
This man knows nothing about what caused anti-Semitism in Poland. But he knows how to hate.
And in the Jerusalem Post
BTW, the town in question is Pruchnik. It has a population of 3,500 people.
 |
| Source Daily Mail |
 |
| Ultra Orthodox Burn solider in effigy in Jerusalem week after coalition rift tempered Source: i24 News |
 |
| Ultra Orthodox Hang Soldier Effigies in Draft Protest Source: The Times of Israel |
In their minds, the children are beating the person who, according to the Scriptural history they were taught, helped crucify Jesus. The beating is done entirely within a Christian context; Iscariot’s Jewishness has nothing to do with it.
ReplyDeleteWorld Israel News, however, wants readers to believe that Polish children are beating the effigy of a Jew because of the innate anti-Semitism that exists in all Poles. This is in line with Danusha’s work Bieganski, which argues that Jews and non-Jews work hard to create and maintain the brutish Bieganski stereotype. In addition to being physically strong, dimwitted, and dirty, he is epitomized by his anti-Semitism. World Israel News is more than happy to perpetuate this stereotype, which, in turn, prods readers to reveal their own ignorance and anti-Polonism.
Gene thanks. I will ask Terese, below, to read your post.
DeleteHello Gene, you say "The beating is done entirely within a Christian context; Iscariot’s Jewishness has nothing to do with it."
DeleteBut can you tell me what is Christian about it - what there is in the Christian Greek Scriptures that would teach anyone to do this?
Hi Sue,
DeleteI originally wanted to use the word Catholic but felt it was too limiting since Protestants also know Judas Iscariot. I was raised Swedish Christian Lutheran and, as the word Christian encompasses Catholics and Protestants, I thought it might be more appropriate.
Now that you point it out, I see how it can mean something I didn’t intend. Instead of saying “The beating is done entirely within a Christian context”, I could have said “The beating is done according to Christian teachings, which recount Iscariot’s betrayal of Jesus.”
Sorry for the confusion.
Hi Gene - and thanks for the reply. The Christian Greek Scriptures do tell us how Jesus was betrayed and the sad end that Judas came to. But... making an effigy of him and beating it... why? Can you imagine Jesus doing that?!
DeleteThis seems to come from another tradition altogether.
Danusha, I disagree with you on this. The response from the Polish people should be to condemn this horrible act. The fact that it happened in a small town of 3,500 does not make any difference! It is still a very horrible act. Nor does it make any difference that effigies are used, or have been used in other countries, other cultures. There is not excuse for this! And, I would hope that other Poles would stand up and condemn it.
ReplyDeleteTerese do me a favor and pick out the line in my post with which you disagree. Seriously. Tell me what exactly I wrote, above, that you disagree with.
DeleteTerese, also, please read Gene's post, above.
DeleteIt's hardly surprising that negative comments should follow a negative incident. You rightly condemned the burning of the effigy in Wroclaw. How is this any different if the effigy is designed to look like a stereotypical Jew?
ReplyDeleteMichal you really see no difference between this custom and the burning of Jews in effigy in Wroclaw?
DeleteYou tell me. What do the two events have in common?
The effigies are both designed to look like a stereotypical Jew.
ReplyDeleteMichal you wrote "It's hardly surprising that negative comments should follow a negative incident"
ReplyDeleteYou really don't understand my post. And Terese doesn't understand my post, either.
The comments aren't, as you typify them, "negative." The comments are hateful, and they are hateful in a stereotypical way.
And that was exactly World Israel News' goal. To provide only enough data to provoke and to revivify a negative stereotype of Poles. Zero to understand or even to correct.
World Israel News and the other news sources that covered this event did so in the most hateful, stereotypical way imaginable. They exploited this event to keep the Brute Polak stereotype alive.
It is *they* who are creating an effigy of a stereotypical hated other and using it to monger violence and hate directed at a hated other.
Do you really not get that? The real effigy here is the Brute Polak. The real beaters are those revivifying the Brute Polak with their every post.
Michal, you bring up Wroclaw. A few years ago, in Wroclaw, an avowed anti-Semite, acting outside of any tradition, blamed Jews for immigration woes. This anti-Semite burned a Jew in effigy.
Pruchnik -- villagers engaged in an ancient tradition related to Judas. That's all we know. To understand more, we must travel to that village and ask those people what this custom means to them.
Do you think that it would be responsible to post images of Orthodox Jews hanging black people in effigy and IDF soldiers in effigy and to claim that they are typical perfidious Jews? NO! If you are going to publish provocative images of Orthodox Jews hanging blacks or IDF soldiers in effigy you have to meet with them and ask them what that activity means to them.
Further, if you want to stop this custom, you have to treat these villagers with the same respect that would be accorded to any other group. At the bare minimum research them enough that you know the name of their village!
Ask them what this custom means to them. Ask them if they are aware of the problems with it. Ask them if you can work with them to change it.
You couldn't do that with the man in Wroclaw because he is an avowed anti-Semite acting according to his own plan.
If you want traditional customs to change, from FGM to this beating Judas custom, it really does not help to demonize those engaging in the custom.
That the Jewish news sources condemning this custom didn't do that is just evidence that they are, in this instance, more about stirring up hatred against a stereotypical effigy of Poles than about healing problem areas.
Of course that is true... But, knowing that if a Pole so much as farts, it will be covered by the media with great gusto, don't you think the idiot who dressed up this "Judas" as a Jew should have had some second thoughts? If not him, then maybe the local councilors, the mayor?
DeleteMy problem is not that this is covered but that episodes that you refer to are NOT covered and they are not covered b/c the media will protect those closer to their own even when they are ashamed of them, whereas they will not protect Poles. If you want to change that then have more Poles go into media jobs.
its certainly true that we are on the "unter" page Jim - a lot of effort has gone into putting us there!
DeleteSo, yes, that should be factored in.
However, the important thing is to listen to our Creator, and apply the Golden Rule and treat everyone with the kindness and respect we would want for ourselves. That would rule out anything of this sort, anywhere, and is a protection for everyone.
God's law is perfect.
But, while i hope the people of Pruchnik will rethink this effigy tradition and give it a miss in future, they will still, under the Mother's Milk law, be "evil fascists" of course.
And if, through some strange U-turn in the Political Zeitgeist, us Poles/Polonians should get promoted to the "uber" page, they can carry on un-criticised.
So I hope that they will discontinue this, but for Golden Rule reasons - because they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings - not for futile political reasons.
What we have in England, as you know, is the annual ritual of Guy Fawkes being burned in effigy on the 5th of November. I wonder how many people who participate in these events actually know anything about the Gunpowder Plot or the fact that Fawkes himself was a Catholic. Does the effigy look like a Catholic? No. Anyway, what does a Catholic look like? In the Polish examples, even though people may argue that this is supposed to be Judas or that is supposed to be Soros, it's pretty clear that an Orthodox Jew is represented.
ReplyDeleteYou don't need to tell me about hateful comments because I've just been fielding some abuse because I ventured to say that not everyone in Poland agrees with the pronouncements of Krystyna Pawlowicz on the subject of the US ambassador's greetings to Polish Jews.
https://worldisraelnews.com/passover-wishes-from-us-envoy-in-poland-met-with-anger-anti-semitism/
Belated Happy Easter
Michal, more.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever seen this custom in real life?
No.
Are you aware of anyone in Poland practicing this custom in recent times?
No.
Do you know if anyone besides these villagers practice this custom now?
No.
Have you ever been to this village? Talked to these villagers? No.
Has anyone talked to these villagers about not doing this? We don't know.
We have been given only enough information to hate these villagers.
In Wroclaw we knew exactly the intention of the man burning the effigy. And you cannot deny that the Wroclaw effigy and this effigy look totally different.
No one "hates" these villagers. The reason this is public is most likely having to do with the idea of discrediting the current Polish government. Who would want to do that, you can ask and hopefully answer yourself but the trope of Polish anti-Semitism has been used for that many times. Again, knowing that people haves strewn sh*t in your path, the best choice is to try not to step in it.
DeleteYou're focusing on the reaction to the event rather than on the event itself. And one effigy may have been larger than the other, but both were made to look like Jews. You may want to explore this ancient custom (although apparently it has only recently been revived) but I see absolutely nothing edifying in looking at little kids being encouraged to beat and kick a dummy before it's decapitated and dumped in a river. At least the Guy Fawkes effigy just goes up in flames and that's the end of it. According to Gazeta Wyborcza, the local Catholic Curia is distancing itself from this ritual.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteYes, Jewish media will jump on any report of anti-Semitism anywhere in the world, Poland is particularly vulnerable to this b/c of Jewish prejudices against Poles and the media can blow it out of proportion. Is that what you wanted to hear?
DeleteNow, how about some personal responsibility on the part of these villagers so as not to give the media an opportunity to do that?
Beyond that, I understand that village life can be boring but is this the best they can come up with in terms of recreation? I mean a "beating"? It just invites the stereotype, doesn't it?
I didn't say that you found the spectacle edifying. I said that I don't find it edifying.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThere is nothing personal in my comments. I am just wondering why you would want to analyze an event which is clearly what it seems to be - an act of symbolic brutality. The worldwide reactions are worth commenting on, of course, but the event itself is indefensible, in my opinion.
Delete" I am just wondering"
DeleteTry reading my post. I'm not being sarcastic. Try hearing me before you judge me. The answer to your question is spelled out utterly clearly in the blog post, above
There is zero reason to "wonder."
I've read and re-read your posts and comments and still don't see what you're trying to achieve with this. What is there to understand here, other than a display of crude hostility? Just because a ritual is ancient doesn't make it right. There is no doubt that some people are jumping on this quite eagerly as yet another example of Polish backwardness, but, looking at the comments sections on Polish news sites, many Poles themselves are horrified by this.
Delete" Just because a ritual is ancient doesn't make it right. "
DeleteAnd I never said this ritual was right.
Let's let this go. You and I are getting nowhere with this exchange. I have yet to see you address a single one of my points, and you continue to imply that I've said things I haven't said. So let's please stop now. Thank you.
I forget if I said this already and please forgive me if I'm repeating myself. I tried to post this link on Facebook and Facebook would not allow me to do so, and I was threatened with Facebook jail. No explanation.
ReplyDeleteSo, people all over Facebook are sharing the "Look at the Dumb Polax in the Zoo" video from World Israel News, but any response is not allowed. At least my puny response was not allowed.
What video is this?!? And are "the world's" double standards becoming more blatant by the minute?
DeleteThe photo in TVP INFO, dated 22/04/2019 update: 16:31; clearly shows the name “JUDAS” in large red capital letters painted across the effigy’s chest. The photo’s article states that the World Jewish Congress condemned it as “An explicitly anti-Semitic manifestation”.
ReplyDeleteYes, their case is only weakened by the fact that, given the Mother's Milk scenario, everything us Poles/Polonians say or do is "an explicitly anti-Semitic manifestation".
DeleteWhat i am still wondering about is what is Christian about making and destroying effigies? It is something - as far as I can see - that many societies do - but surely its not something followers of Christ would do?
A comment was sent in about property restitution. I assessed this comment as off topic and inflammatory. I did not post it. This matter is very controversial and it is now an international incident. My latest post talks about how the BBC is using this event as proof that Polish Catholics are responsible for the Holocaust. We need to be responsible in our language.
ReplyDeleteHello everyone,
ReplyDeleteIn Poland we have a custom called "topienie Marzanny" (drowning of Marzanna). In Slavic mythology Marzanna was a goddess of winter, death and nightmares. Not exactly a popular figure.
Every year people in Poland drown her effigy in rivers. Usually effigy is also beaten, hanged or decapitated. Sometimes all those things.
In some areas there are no rivers big enough to drown the effigy. Then it is burned and ashes are tossed into the stream. Even the smallest will do the job.
Catholic Church tried to forbid this pagan custom and failed. Church also tried to "christianize" this custom by replacing Marzanna with Judas, but without much success.
Some places in Subcarpathian region would practice "burning of Judas" but with time they would fall back to good old "drowning of Marzanna".
As far as I know Pruchnik is the last place in Poland where locals still beat/hang/burn Judas. They returned to that custom after an interval of a few years.
Pruchnik is a small town. Vast majority of Poles was unaware of it's existence. And it's local "tradition". And I really mean overwhelming majority of Poles. Polish Jews included.
But not anymore.
I was aware. I used to visit my grandparents on Easter. I would then pass through Pruchnik on my way. And yes, I've seen those hasid dolls.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marzanna
Interesting Luckasz - I assumed this would have its roots in religion - but not, of course, in Christianity.
DeleteLukasz thank you for your post. I had heard of drowning of Marzanna. I've never seen it. I don't know if it is the roots of Judas burning. As you probably know, Judas burning occurs in other countries, as well.
DeleteThe effigy is meant to stand for Judas, but the facial features were stereotypically Jewish.
ReplyDeleteLet's just make the this puppet black so it will stand for the darkness of sin. I am just joking of course- in this case there would be accusations of "racism". By the way- how would Jews react if someone would kindly ask them to stop the arguably creepy custom of hanging Hamman? Or of circumcision (which goes against the right of the child to have an intact body)? Of course it would be met with gierce accusations of "antisemitism". I do wonder if at least some Jews realise how mamy people have grown tired of the double standard that seems (culturally) to prevail in huge parts of the Jewish community.
Also this is kind of bizarro world logic: so, according to Jews judas actually was a good guy because he was a Jew and no one is allowed to beat up bis effigy? Just saying.
one last thing- this is going against the current Polish government. which is sheer madness- no government before it has been so friendly inclined towards Jews. But they are not leftists. It's the same thing in france- many many Jews are attacking the right in favour of the left. The left is actually importing muslims (and Africans) en masse who hate/dislike Jews. This is the opposite of smart.
Additionally many people start to assimilate mass migration with Jews (claiming that they are actually shilling for mass migration)
And you, and two Facebook friends are refusing to hear me, and I am sick to death of it. If you don't want to hear what I am saying, stop pretending that you are engaging in any kind of dialogue with me. This pretense is disrespectful. And shame on you.
ReplyDeleteMichal Karski you wrote
" I see absolutely nothing edifying n looking at little kids being encouraged to beat and kick a dummy before it's decapitated and dumped in a river."
You can't hear me, because we are far apart, but I am so sick of being talked to this way that I just used an expletive and directed it at you.
I never said this. And shame on you for pretending that I did.
And, again, you are refusing to address anything I said, perhaps because you did not understand what I said, or perhaps because you don't think it's worth your time to listen to others.
As long as you are not addressing the issues I've raised, we can't talk to each other, and you are massively missing the point.
Michal you were clearly addressing me. Your post began with "you" and "you" meant me. Here are your words:
ReplyDelete"You're focusing on the reaction to the event rather than on the event itself. And one effigy may have been larger than the other, but both were made to look like Jews. You may want to explore this ancient custom (although apparently it has only recently been revived) but I see absolutely nothing edifying in looking at little kids being encouraged to beat and kick a dummy before it's decapitated and dumped in a river."
What I am telling you is that you, (and two people who attacked me on Facebook) are not hearing me.
If you want to disagree with my initial post, go ahead and quote the portion you don't like and address it. Don't put words in my mouth. That is really not helpful for dialogue
I had to delete and repost a couple of comments because one of the people I mentioned by name asked not to be mentioned by name so I deleted the mention of the person's name and reposted the comment without the name present.
ReplyDelete