NorthJersey.com reports that Chester Grabowski's anti-Semitism was not a secret; those asked to endorse naming a Clifton park after him should have known all along.
Full story here.
Thanks to Otto Gross for sending this in.
Please see the previous blog post for my take on this story, and its significance to Bieganski the Brute Polak stereotype.
Wednesday, October 10, 2012
40 comments:
Bieganski the Blog exists to further explore the themes of the book Bieganski the Brute Polak Stereotype, Its Role in Polish-Jewish Relations and American Popular Culture.
These themes include the false and damaging stereotype of Poles as brutes who are uniquely hateful and responsible for atrocity, and this stereotype's use in distorting WW II history and all accounts of atrocity.
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This previous history has less to do with "amnesia" than the fact that some people like to dig up the past and stir the pot, while others (perhaps the majority) don't.
ReplyDeleteThe fear of losing Jewish votes is also evident in the article.
This brings us full-circle to the double standard elaborated in the earlier blog post. It is not limited to those who made anti-Semitic comments while offering many outstanding contributions, nor was it just a product of "the spirit of the times".
In fact, consider the recent past, and the present. If African-Americans who make arguably anti-Semitic comments can be honored because of the contributions that they had made to their community, why cannot Poles who arguably made ant-Semitic statements be honored for the contributions that they had made to their community? For that matter, why are Jews honored who make viciously Polonophobic remarks?
Of course, the answer is simple: In accordance with the Bieganski stereotype, African-Americans and Jews are considered victim groups, while the Poles, notwithstanding all the sufferings and injustices that they had experienced, are not.
Malcolm X High School in Newark would be a good example of this. I try and account for personal demons when I hear about these types of stories but the same thing occurred to me too. He crossed the line in so many ways and he's honored.
ReplyDeleteWell said,Jan.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I have a further remark-We are all humans.And we all do make mistakes.So,lets say he has harbored some dislike for Jewish people.F.e I have been insulted by some,also by some gays for the crime of being Polish,so yeah, I had some moments of dislike for both groups (but,as I know about how Poles are victimized and why, I do not harbor any hatred towards both).I have made sarcastic remarks towards friends,mostly about how ironic the Stockholm Syndrome can get.Does this make me an anti-Semite? I have made sarcastic remarks about how I like Nazis better than progressives,at least they are frank about their stupid hatred.Does this make me a fascist?.Lets say, he did not like Jewish people for some time,perhaps because he was angry at being abused as an "anti-Semite",a "Bohunk" or whatever reason. In my eyes, some remarks made a considerable time ago does not make one a (insert whatever you want) for all eternity,people can change. "Resocialization", yeah!, is this not what "progressives" are talking about all the time? But, apparently, if you are Polish having made some stupid remarks, or having associated with the wrong people for some time in the far past makes you an outcast for all eternity.Very "progressive", isn't it? Again-I believe for equal standards for everyone. Let me give you another example for hypocrisy-On September, the 28th 2012, a bomb exploded and destroyed parts of the synagogue in Malmoe.But were are Jewish people seemingly afraid to go to? To Poland,of course,where they are,apparently, fearing for their lives. Ridiculous.
Danusha, have a look at this here oO!
ReplyDeletehttp://www.timesofisrael.com/trending-swastikas-spark-anti-semitic-deluge-on-twitter/
Maybe. Life's not fair. But complaining about it won't help. Instead, how about creating some leaders who do not have skeletons in the closet?
ReplyDeleteA leader that talks about Polish culture, food, songs, history, etc, rather than about hurts, pains, suffering and the unfairness of it all, would no doubt better serve the view that others have of Polish leaders and, frankly, would be more likely to make Polish culture attractive to people of Polish extraction. If identifying as Polish puts you right away on a collision course with other powerful community organizations then people won't do it - individuals are smart and they make decisions about the attractiveness of "belonging" as a simple calculation - community organizers are like marketeters - they are selling a product - if they do not understand that, and expect the product will sell itself b/c of common history, blood ties, etc., they are deluding themselves.
Again, is there a double standard? Perhaps, but the reality is what it is and waking up in the morning to say I wish it were different won't make it so. Also, if you want to call someone else on this, e.g., if they are up for being rewarded with a park name, please do so on those occasions - you will be on better footing - that might be easier than defending Mr Grabowski.
And btw, however hurtful, I am afraid the making Polish jokes won't be enough to disqualify such an individual - the accusations against Mr. Grabowski are not that he told a couple of Jewish jokes - they are of a slightly different caliber.
Mr Grabowski, if the accusations are correct (and I have seen no one address them yet), said that there were 2m not 6m Holocaust victims. For those mathinclined you can take the 4m difference divide it by 17k and the result will give you the number of "Katyn's" that he was effectively denying. By all accounts this is simply not true - you can quibble whether it was 5.9m or 6m but I have not seen any respectable historian claim that it was 2m. And he certainly has a right (and as a community leader, the duty) to bring more light to Polish victims of Hitler (about 1.9m) but it seems to me there is no reason to pick a fight for the sake of picking a fight - particularly, if you are so obviously wrong.
He also said that the advertisement in his paper was from "Slavic" KKK members. I am sure I do not have to point out how stupid that sounds in light of that organization's general view of Catholics (but maybe he was not Catholic?). The idea of running as a member of a party that once fielded David Duke is also "in bad taste".
It feels like he needed to belong to something bigger than his newspaper and is alleged to have looked for it in, let's call it, strange places. He may have been slighted by someone who was Jewish in the past - I don't know - maybe even repeatedly, but someone once said if you want to be a politician (& a community leader is a de facto politician) you have to learn how to control your anger.
Your point is taken. Of course there should be Polish leaders who present a positive vision of Poles and Poland for all to see.
DeleteHowever, ignoring Polonophobia, and anti-Polish double standards, does not make them go away. It only makes them fester.
Having bland, noncontrovertial figures will only keep the Poles fixated, in the public mind, at the "Polka and pierogi" level.
I don't think ignoring Polonophobia (I prefer antiPolonism) is ok but, to enter a fight with Dershowitz about an individual who, at last claim, was at least a bit nutty, does not sound to me like dealing with Polonophobia - in fact, denying facts makes the Polish community be perceived as fitting the stereotype you claim you want to combat.
DeleteWhen Arlan Specter made his Polish jokes he was not exactly applauded - that is something that one ought to go after not this nonsense. Frankly, having a critical view of Gross' books is helpful too - provided that one actually reads these books and has something intelligent to say. For that matter, if you have time on your hands, go to the Tablet, Forward, JChronicle or a dozen other Jewish theme websites (how many Polish ones are there?) and polemize with the racist, hateful comments there - there are plenty of those - guess what, usually, you can do so, simply by using the words that spew forth from the haters mouths - they will give you the ammunition. Complain about that - in fact, complain to the ADL or the SPLC - if they do not react, call them on it.
Noncontroversial figures get elected and are listened to - put differently, they can aspire to a moral highground.
Of course, you may also make a financial decision to go a certain way. So if Mr Grabowski was intent to market himself as a shock jock on certain frequencies of Palestinian radio, his expressions (alleged) of outrage may have been to his financial benefit - but the US is a slightly different forum.
In other words, the moral aspects of all this aside, controversy is ok only so long as you pick on the weaker and appeal to those with pocket books - then you may sell your books and have your radioshows (see O'Reilly, Savage - but also see how they had to adapt) - picking on the strong has never been a particularly successful strategy.
Moreover, allowing oneself to be baited into making "controversial" statements is also a sign of immaturity. This is doubly true on the internet it seems - where you never know if the person posting hateful language is a bored kid or an agent of a foreign power (as per Com Lenin, ask, 'who benefits?')
As far as the pierogi comment is concerned (Polka, I think, is an Austrian invention), I think you have a very depressing view of Polish culture and history if that is all you think that culture is reduceable to.
Can we not have our own "Torah" or "Talmud"? Why not aspire to write something like that (less all the nasty stuff, of course)? Would not having a literature related to our people (that does not discuss/fixate/concern itself with [Jews, Germans, Russians, etc]) be a more interesting and lasting way of advancing the cause? What about promoting Pan Tadeusz or Zeromski, etc?
Yes, its politics again Jan. And really if Stalin's Red Army can be honoured with memorials in the U.S.A. then I don't quite see what objection can be raised to parks being named after anyone.
ReplyDeleteHowever, the memorial I hope for Chester Grabowski is that his Creator, the God of Abraham, remembers him. Because if so, then he is sleeping safe in "the everlasting arms" and has a wonderful awakening ahead of him into the "new earth" in which we, the children of Adam, will become the one loving family we were always meant to be.
@Aidan
ReplyDeleteI agree-we need leaders who are,I dare say,like Romney-I mean, wether you like him or not, he does leave a good,solid impression. We Need such leaders who will remind the world of Polish bravery and humanity,because that is what makes Poland attractive to me :-) People, who will put the self-indulgent West in its place-by telling the truth,pure and simple.F.e by reminding the world that Polish women were (along with another defamed nation,the Turks) the first to vote,that Polish (yes,and even earlier,Turkish)homosexuals were the first to be left in peace by the law, that "Catholicism" actually is not crazier than (die-hard) environmentalism or veganism. The more I see the corruption, the lies,hypocrisy of the "West" the more I identify with Poland,but also, in a more General way, with Hungary,Romania,Bulgaria,Serbia ect. We are in this together-treated like colonies by countries who are getting colonialized themselves (ever been to London or Marseille? To Kreuzberg in Berlin? If yes, than you know what I am talking about).You are right,pity is a warm smirk,nothing more.I personally have come to irritate people by telling them about cool stuff like Kosciuszko using his Money to have slaves bought and released,about Zegota,the AK,Solidarnosc,about Polish tolerance,the bravery and accomplishments of Polish women and and and.
What a surprise, Hanna endorses another right wing mediocrity like Romney! "He does leave a good, solid impression". May be he does on a certain kind of person. They said the same of Bush and he didn't disappoint with two new wars and tax cuts for the super rich while the poor went even further down the gurgler. You can't put that down to political correctness. Perhaps some like that sort of thing.
DeletePeter, please make your point with posting ad hominem material against another poster.
DeleteHanna,
ReplyDeleteWe're not talking about ancient history here. Grabowski made these comments in the 1980s and 1990s, not in 1453. How would you feel, Hannah, if an American Jew with a record of hatred towards Poles had a park named after him? Imagine, if you will, that this person claimed that 1,000,000 (not 3,000,000) Poles were murdered by the Germans, that his critics were "Polish boys" as opposed to "real Americans," and that Catholics were out to destroy Judaism. Oh, and throw in a newspaper ad calling for Jews to support the Ulster Defense Association.
This sort of thing is simply not tolerated in America, which is one of the reasons why America is a better country than most.
Dr. Goska,
You identified a real problem in your "Bieganski," a contribution for which you deserve to be recognized and applauded. I do not, however, agree with many of the points you made in your last post. Chester Grabowski was not a nobody; on the contrary, he was, according to his supporters, a friend of presidents, powerful congressmen, and a pope.
And it is also unfair to assume that Alan Dershowitz went after him because Polish Americans are an easy target. As far as I know, Dershowitz (I'm not a fan, by the way) has never been accused of harboring any prejudice towards Poles or Polish Americans. In your post, you asked why a national celebrity like Dershowitz would bother with someone like Grabowski, suggesting that those who did not, say, attend Harvard or defend OJ Simpson do not deserve to be heard by those who did. Dershowitz has sparred with many people during his career, most of whom were not famous, rich, or powerful. It is my opinion that he should be applauded for this. According to Grabowski Jr., Dershowitz and Grabowski had carried on "a decades-long feud," so it is hardly surprising that Dershowitz would remember Grabowski and, for all I know, Google his name from time to time.
We have been through all this before, and I trust that we do not have to go over it again.
DeleteCan you think of ONE instance in which a Jew making vile comments about Poles was forced to resign, not have an institution named after him, etc.? I have been studying Polish-Jewish relations for many years, and I cannot think of one. If so much as ONE such instance exists, I would be pleasantly shocked.
As for Alan Dershowitz, he has in fact made some very ugly comments in the past about Poles. For example, check out his CHUTZPAH, published many years ago.
It would not be surprising at all if Dersh bears a grudge that he wants to continue well after the death of his debate sparring-partner. Does that make him a big person? I don't think so.
Hello Liron and Jan, well, no, I don't think anyone making vile comments about Poles is in any danger of having to resign from anything. If this Alan Dershowitz has, as you say, made "some very ugly comments" about Poles, he clearly hasn't had to resign from public life and from whatever it is he does, and I am sure it would never stop him having a park named after him, should he so wish.
DeleteThe Little Red Book of Political Correctness seems to have defined us as a minority that can safely be insulted. You only have to think of "Maus", and try to think which other minority group could be portrayed as "swine" and the book even be publishable, let alone lauded and applauded. Very very few I think.
But I do understand how you feel Liron, about not wanting the gentleman memorialised in this way, if he said what he is accused of saying. Its painful for me that Stalin's Red Army is memorialised in the U.S.A. - in spite of the millions of Eastern Europeans killed by the Stalin regime.
But I have been forced to realise that those deaths have no political weight at all. And given that I am trying to be "no part" of the world, isn't it better that I see it clearly? Its probably hard to explain what a golden country America seemed to an English Catholic Convent schoolgirl in the 1950s.
So I am not campaigning for a park to be named after this gentleman, or for it not to be named after him. But I do wonder if, had he been from a minority group with PC-protection, there would have been a problem, whatever he had said - or not said?
All these depressing political calculations are yet another thing that makes me want to stay completely out of the world of politics.
So overall, I have to admit that the silver lining is bigger than the cloud - but only thanks to the God of Abraham, and the faithful Hebrew scribes of old who transcribed his perfect,comforting and reassuring word - both the Hebrew and the Christian Greek Scriptures - down through the generations.
Hi, LR. I stand by what I said. I was born in Passaic County. I walk to Clinton about once a week to do grocery shopping -- I live that close to the town mentioned in the articles.
ReplyDeleteI've been working on Polish Jewish relations for over twenty years. I've been in Congressman Pascrell's office many times and an employee in that office, Jacky Grindrod, who is herself of Polish ancestry, used the resources of that office to help me and my work.
And I have never heard of this guy.
I cannot share any estimate of him as being worthy of worldwide attention, as Dershowitz apparently assess him, and as you appear to.
I said he was a small potatoes hater and I stand by that assessment.
I also stand by my point that the brute Polak's hate is assessed by those, consciously or unconsciously, invested in the Brute Polak image, as being of significance greater than others' hate. I stand by the links to the articles pointing out that Congressman Pascrell's Muslim supporters often make overtly, genocidal, anti-Semitic statements. and yet Dershowitz is not bringing THAT to worldwide attention.
LR -- again -- I live in Passaic County. I know Muslims. My Muslim friends have told me that it is their goal in life to "kill alotta Jews" or "kill all Jews."
this is stated openly! No Polish person I have ever met has ever made the kind of casual, pervasive, inescapable, genocidally anti-Semitic comments that are made everday in Paterson, Clifton, and Passaic. Do these statements get worldwide attention? No. Why? Because the Brute Polak is a more popular target.
Again, I don't support the renaming of this park. But these other points are important, too.
And I very much appreciate Otto's post, above, mentioning Malcolm X High School. Believe me, Malcolm X and the Black Muslims have far more influence and fame than the late Mr Grabowski.
Article by Alan Dershowitz:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3390/chester-grabowski
I've just read the article Danusha, thanks for posting the link, and IF what it says is true, then he was a bit of Chancellor Bismarck in his opinions. And he had some very odd religious ideas - IF what the article says is true. How can anyone kill God?! God cannot die, he does not die. Jehovah is "the King of eternity". He sustains everything. Nothing would exist without Him. There wouldn't even be nothingness, as that is something, in a way... but now my head is starting to spin...
DeleteHowever, IF the article is true, then no, he should not have a park named after him.
But then neither should Bismarck have towns in America named after him - and neither should there be admiring memorials to the Red Army - in my opinion.
Though as I take no part in politics, and am not American anyway, I shan't be campaigning either for or against any of the above.
I am not sure I agree with this. To say that Muslims are not viewed with suspicion in America is to court the appearence of disingeneousness. Whoever you meet on your walks and whoever makes the statements you mention is not, I think, having his name be put on a park, no?
ReplyDeleteAs far as Malcom X is concerned, you are somewhat correct, except, of course, his statements were made in a context, for blacks, that was slightly different than the context of 60s and 70s that Mr Grabowski grew up in (i.e., the context of Don Rickles et al. making obnoxious Polish jokes) (Put differently, Mr. Grabowski or his ancestors, did land on Plymouth Rock). In that much, perhaps more forbearance is advisable.
(Having said that, I absolutely agree that there is a hierarchy of victimhood in this country that is quite ridiculous. However, Poles are not alone in being "unprotected" - see what happened to Don Imus, for example (Similarly, look at Michael Richards)- basically every European group is broadly speaking "unprotected")
Moreover, even that forbearance towards "victim" classes has its limits. So that other members of the Malcolm X coterie, e.g., the ever honorable Minister F have been made permanent pariahs in the same society that you accuse of having a "brute" Polak stereotype - whether they are pariahs in the AfroAmerican community in general is another story but that's a topic for a different forum. In fact, Jesse Jackson has had to "repent" as well and even now is not considered "safe" - compared to others being promoted by liberals, e.g., Harold Ford or the current President. Or notice how quickly the President had to unload Reg. Wright. In fact, one can turn this on its head and argue, that Dershowitz' "picking on Poles" vs African Americans is a sign of the elites' own racism in that more is expected of "civilized Poles" than of, Africans (though, Dershowitz has not, of course, been reluctant to go after Farrakhan either). See, for example, reaction to Kosovo vs the complacency on Rwanda.
I say this as someone who does not view Mr. Dershowitz with much sympathy based on his past conduct and innate obnoxiousness (the fact that he should put forth "worthy" PolAm names for the park is the most recent sign of that).
Finally, none of this takes away from Mr. Grabowski's achievements for the Polish community and no one is forbidding the community to celebrate him, warts and all - I view a public park, however, differently.
Whose idea was this?
ReplyDeleteMaybe this soundbite will help some to see the point I'm trying to make:
ReplyDeleteWhen is Alan Dershowitz going to get around to changing the name of the Ford Foundation?
An interesting question Danusha. And I don't advise anyone to hold their breath while they are waiting for that to happen.
DeleteMr. Rubin,
ReplyDeleteAbout Grabowski I am just speculating-I have not known him personally.I just believe that, were Mr. Grabowski a black man, no fuzz would have been made.Or if its long ago. I mean, there are Martin Luther parks in the US,right? Just read his thesis "On the Jews and their lies",which the Nazis used as a blueprint for the Holocaust,I dare say.Does anyone care? Of course not.Does it deminish his work as a religious reformer?No.
Well, what are You talking about? Otto von Bismarck was a virulent hater of Poles, yet, in your beautiful country, a state capital (North Dakota) is named after him! I would like to have it named after s.o more friendly :-)
Also, I have been called an "anti-Semite" by some Jewish people for just mentioning that not only Jewish persons (of various nationalities) were murdered but also Poles,other Slavs,Gypsies.Because some people seem to think that remembering other victimes diminishes somehow the Holocaust.
Also, the way this whole thing is discussed again-look at the way the media is writting about it-Being Polish is associated with anti-Semitism Oh wonder, but being German is not (the nationality of the "nazis" is never mentioned,probably because it would not be nice towards the Germans."Polish death camps" on the other hand seem to be fine)-although, when compared with Poland, there is more violence against Jewish persons in Germany,France,GB and Sweden.Which does,somehow,not make them "anti-Semitic".
You are writing: This sort of thing is simply not tolerated in America
I agree. But if Your highest leader is exposing the virtues of a 40 000 Dollar/year plus tuition fee education by talking about "Polish death camps" than he just "misspoke".On national televion,but no need to apologize.Had he misspoken about things connected to race or Israel or Islam, no pardon would have been given,he would have had to apologize on national tv,too.Pure hypocrisy.I think, You Americans are badly off-political correctness is poisoning everything-as long as you are not a member of a "protected group" that is. Dont believe me? Just think about the,for us Europeans, unbelievable PC terror that was unleased by gay lobbiest just because the Baptist manager of a KFC clone spoke his mind. Had he cursed Poles instead,he would probably have been applauded by f.e Debbie Schlussel,commentators on "The Times of Israel" or just ignored by the mainstream media.
Hanna, you say: "Well, what are You talking about? Otto von Bismarck was a virulent hater of Poles, yet, in your beautiful country, a state capital (North Dakota) is named after him!"
DeleteCrumbs Hanna, I didn't know that.
Here is an extract about the gentleman from my Amazon review of Dr.Goska's "Bieganski" - my only review so far:
"She (Dr.G) has some trenchant things to say about Academe, and she demonstrates the political agendas behind the vilification of all things Polish.
For example, she includes this quote from Bismarck, Chancellor of Germany (1871-1890), who said: "Personally, I can sympathise with (the Poles) position, but if we want to exist, we cannot do other than extirpate them. A wolf is not to blame that God made him as he is; which does not mean we shouldn't shoot him to death whenever possible."
Those words bore terrible fruitage in the next century, when, by 1939, any vestiges of sympathy or fellow feeling were to be banished. "On August 22, 1939, on the invasion of Poland, Hitler gave explicit permission to his commanders to kill "without pity or mercy, men, women, and children of Polish descent or language"". (Wikipedia)
Whatever Mr.Grabowski may have said, it surely wasn't anything as terrible as that, nor, as far as I am aware (and hope!) did anyone get hurt or killed because of anything he said.
So is the reason the park can't be named after him simply because he is a Polonian? That is kind of what I thought in the first place.
Anyway, yet more incentive to keep on trying to be "no part" of the world. This can be life saving stuff if we can look at it through the prism of the Inspired Scriptures, both Hebrew and Christian Greek.
I don't know how to express how grateful I am for them. They truly are a light shining in a very dark place.
About (some) Jewish persons being friendly dispossed towards Poland-
ReplyDeletehttp://thejewishchronicle.net/view/full_story/18999211/article-%E2%80%98Polish-Death-Camps%E2%80%99-uproar-an-unwarranted-outrage-?instance=news_special_coverage_right_column
‘Polish Death Camps’ uproar an unwarranted outrage by Menachem Rosensaft
(YES,this is the same guy who 1.belittled in a vicious way the efforts Poles did to safe people of Jewish faith 2. say,Poles were totally fine with the Holocaust,because they "profited" from it and 3. they were totally willing to help with the Holocaust, they are "no innocent bystanders",meaning, they share the guilt 4."the Jewish community generally and survivors and their families in particular should stop injecting tourist and other dollars into the Polish economy. Moral suasion clearly hasn't worked. Perhaps treating Poland with the same consideration it accords to Jews and others who were robbed of their property will be more effective." Of course, this sounds like blackmail, but perhaps is not.)
"In this context, the Polish officials’ harsh condemnation of President Obama’s unintentional reference to the camp to which Karski had borne witness as Polish rather than German or Nazi was, not just over the top, but petty, especially since the president was hardly the first to make such a mistake"
Yeah,totally "petty". From know on, I will call the attacks on the WTC "American attacks" You do not mind,I suppose? Why should you? I mean, it happend on American soil. Probably your own government agreed to it, as it gave them a superb excuse to bomb other countries -IRONY-
Also things like this here"In Albany, Rabbi Weiss told reporters that the Vatican built the convent at Auschwitz as part of its “hidden agenda” to “Christianize” the Jewish Holocaust""
are mind-boggling. In my view, every victim of the Holocaust (and, as a native speaker of German who has researched original documents on this topic I can tell you that Poles and Czechs were to dissapear completely,Baltics by 50 %,Gypsies and Jews also completely-see Generalplan Ost, so reducing the Holocaust to "Jews" only (or rather, Europeans of Jewish faith) is wrong.) has the right to be remembered through his/her own religious tradition.This must include Christianity. I am very much afraid that 1. the Holocaust is demeaned through some groups wanting to instrumentalize it for their own ends. This reduces the victimes to mere means,which is despicable and 2. Remarks as the one above breed resentment instead of mutual understanding. It seems, that a group appears to be errecting a monopoly on suffering. This is wrong,neither good nor evil is the monopoly of anyone.
As George Orwell might have said: "All victims of Hitler are equal, but some are more equal than others". And as Sue Orwell is about to say: "Some victims of Hitler are not victims at all, but perpetrators."
Delete... what to say? Well, its faith strengthening for me to see how the official history of WW2 has been so spun, and that within living memory of the events - because the Inspired Scriptures tell us that the whole world lies in the power of "the father of the lie".
I don't see one reason to doubt that. And I also hope that being lied about can make us aware of the lies we are being told about others, to get us to hate, fear and fight them.
Everyone on earth is our brother and sister - and all wars are civil wars.
We need to be good to each other, no matter how much the world pressures us to go the other way. Not easy I know, speaking as a child of Adam, but absolutely the best way to go.
Interesting examples of Jewish personages making truly vile statements about Poles--as if any more examples were needed.
DeleteTo refocus and sum up my position: The day I see a Jewish personage losing his position, or experiencing a withdrawn offer to have something named after him, is the day that I will stop caring about the fact that Grabowski experienced a withdrawing of the naming of a park after him.
Will hell freeze over before this ever happens?
I'm not sure how this relates to the case of Mr. Grabowski?
DeleteWould you like to have Professor Rosensaft removed from the faculty at Cornell? Then please call him on what he said - and please be specific. Has the PAC reached out to Cornell "in consternation" over these statements? He also makes some legal claims - have these been addressed?
Also, the context of the statements above, whether or not one agrees with their intensity, is one of the claims/reparations discussions which FM Sikorski appeared to be walking away from recently. We ought to add that the statements made by Mr. Rosensaft were quickly disavowed by the WJC leadership as his private opinion.
DeleteAs to the statements about the Obama gaffe, the logic of comparing Alan Dershowitz' writing Polish concentration camps in "Chutzpah" (or other marginal Jewish organizations using the same terminology) to a statement by a sitting President of the US is so weak that it ought to be easily challengeable without having to resort to the kind of posturing that is exhibited above.
Having read the article that Danusha Goska posted above (thanks) I can see why there are objections to Mr.Grabowski having a park named after him - assuming of course that the allegations in the article are true.
DeleteBut the problem is that when every Polonian is routinely accused of shooting Bambi's mother - and stealing people's teeth on a regular basis (see The PJG's "Golden Harvest"), then it becomes hard to know whether such objections are the usual poltical spin, or whether there is a genuine problem.
I assumed this was just the usual anti-Polonian stuff, but, having read the article, I accept that it may well not be.
I do wish he (Mr G, who will not now have a park named after him) would have talked to us about what the Christian Greek Scriptures actually say.
Jan Peczkis tosses out this challenge: when will a Jew lose his job ...
ReplyDelete1.) Not just Jews, but members of every ethnic group, deploy the Bieganski stereotype. I have repeated this one example over and over: Bill Tammeus Bill Tammeus Bill Tammeus. Self identifies as a Christian. Blogs at the National Catholic Reporter. Lies about Poles.
And Polonia does ... what, exactly?
2.) When Polonia follows the guidelines in the "Crisis in Polonian Leadership, Organization, and Vision," purveyors of the Bieganski stereotype like Bill Tammeus and others will change. Not before.
We need to look in the mirror.
Yes and no. Polonophobia should not exist, whether or not Poles are powerful or not. Poles should definitely be more organized, but let us not blame the victim. Otherwise, it is like saying that African-Americans, in a sense, deserved to be discriminated against because they did not do enough to counter-act it before the 1960's.
DeleteYes, of course there are various Polonophobes. How many of them are truly independent-thinking Polonophobes, and how many are largely emulating or echoing Jewish Polonophobes, I do not know.
In any case, owing to the fact that the attacker of Grabowski, Dersh, is Jewish (and makes no small issue of that), my "Let Jews who defame Poles experience what Grabowski is being forced to experience" comment is in fact relevant.
Grabowski is dead so he is not currently experiencing anything (in my opinion, at least).
DeleteAs for the experiences of the "community" one has to ask whether the community was aware of Grabowski's past statements (alleged) and chose to push the park naming anyway.
According to the Bible he is not experiencing anything, as the Inspired Scriptures tell us that the dead "are conscious of nothing at all". And I don't know who nominated Mr. Grabowski,or why, as I had never heard of him till all of this. I don't even know if he would have wanted a park named after him.
DeleteI think the point is that Poles should take an active roll.
ReplyDeleteI didn't send D. this but it helps underscore the point I believe.
This was published on the Krakow Post website:
http://www.krakowpost.com/article/1673
Visited 21,219 times and only one response?
If you are victimized psychically or verbally, not speaking up or fighting back only encourages the bully. Silence is deemed as acceptance.
I understand what you are saying Otto, but we seem to be in a cunning Catch 22. If we don't protest the "You Poles are More Horrid Than Anyone Else in Time and Space AND you Shot Bambi's Mother" stuff, then it must be true. But if we do protest it, it all goes to show how horrible we are for not admitting it.
DeleteIts an interesting challenge. And one that many Poles/Polonians are meeting, by publishing our own stories.
That's why if someone says something as fact we shouldn't just refute it for honor, we should review sources and argue for the truth.
DeleteIf we don't then all Germans are Nazis, all Irishman are drunks, all Englishman are terrible cooks, and all Poles are...too long a list to type. Fight stupidity in whatever form and fashion you feel comfortable with, but fight.
Not fighting back leads to kids thinking they're worthless and growing up into the stereotype. I'm talking about more than national pride. It's dignity, it's self worth and image. Do not sacrifice the truth.
If Poles did terrible things then they should apologize for whatever happened, but if they didn't they shouldn't. That simple.
It's when it's artificially ( or maybe artfully) decided that Poles ( or anyone ) are on the naughty list and the facts are not present or there are other evidence then it's time to speak up and challenge the accuser.
Japan committed atrocities during the war, some people paid the price, many more story got burned up before the Allies captured files. Some stories are written so I understand that facts don't necessarily mean paper trails.
But I think of it: If Germans and Poles shared responsibility for atrocities ( 50/50, 90/10, whatever percentages ) why don't I find that ex-Polish soldiers were accused and evidence was presented at their trials.
I'm in this stuff perpetually and I don't see a hint of it.
If it didn't come out after the WW2, then it certainly would have come out during the Cold War when Poland was on the other side of the fence. Still nothing.
Avoiding a confrontation is not going to help.
So why should anyone just sit and smile when someone slanders you? Your gender? Your culture?
Expect be treated fairly, and treat others fairly.
Oh, come on. Let us quit this silliness about what dead-man Grabowski is "experiencing". You all know what I meant--the same standard being applied to Poles and Jews.
DeleteThis business of Poles and Germans sharing atrocities 50:50 is beyond ridiculous. And only a fraction of 1% of German war criminals were ever brought to justice.
Yes, there is a Catch 22 situation about Poles being passive or active. This does not stop me from promulgating the truth. Better that than just letting others defame us and define us. Besides, resistance is consistent with the Polish spirit.
As many of you know, I have written reviews, on Amazon, of over 1,000 books related to Poland. I get comments calling me a "nationalist" for pointing out facts that the Polonophobes don't want to hear, but that is quite all right with me. Then again, I get comments praising me for presenting the truth, including from comment-posters that don't sound as though they are Polish.
Yes, Otto, and we are speaking out, against considerable odds. Dr.Goska managed, finally, to get "Bieganski" published. Jan Peczis seems to work tirelessly and not get discouraged. John the Poet (Guzlowski) writes amazing poems about his parents wartime experience as slave labourers in Germany. And he is getting his poems out there. Annette Kobak has written movingly about the betrayal of Czechoslovakia and Poland in telling her father's story in "Joe's War". And she doesn't tell it in a manner that would incite hatred and revenge. Which she certainly could have.
DeletePeter Godwin has written movingly about the betrayal of the Polish Forces as soon as WW2 ended in his wonderful "When a Crocodile Eats the Sun". If you haven't read it Otto, please do. You are in for a treat.
John Radzilowski has written of the media and academic agenda against Poles in his excellent "Poles in Minnesota".
We have been speaking up, for quite some time.
The powers that be have finally acknowledged what happened at Katyn - and how much effort on Poles/Polonians part did that take?
Bob Lamming spoke out, politely, about the teaching of "Maus" at his Catholic College - and lost his job and his career.
I do think that Catholic Poles/Polonians should be talking to their local church about this. I would be, if I were still a Catholic. Politely of course, but saying how I feel about it, and why.
But there is a great danger of being pressured by "the world" into behaving as it does. We have got to stand firm against it.
As 1 John 2: 15-17 says: "Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because everything in the world—the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life—does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever."
This current world system is passing away, but he that does the will of God will remain on the earth forever.
Its amazing how that has been turned on its head by those proponents of the Rapture, who say that the good will be removed from the earth, while the wicked are left.
The Bible says exactly the opposite. For example, Proverbs 2:21 says: "For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it."
So, while us Polonians do have to deal with this, and so many of us are, we need to be very careful how we do so.
I want to be here, in the restored earthly Paradise, I want to be here thousands of years from now, in an earth more lovely than I can even imagine, and loving everyone in it as much as I love my own siblings now. More, because I will be more capable of love then. And I don't want to let the sort of people who go out of their way to vilify and revile others get in the way of that.
Hi Peter,
ReplyDelete///What a surprise, Hanna endorses another right wing mediocrity
Well, I am not an American-still,after Obama having more or less openly promised Putin to get rid of the anti-rocket shield in Poland-yes,Romney is a better choice for Poland,obviously.About his "solid" impression-go to Youtube,watch the debate and admit who the better one was.And by better I mean the more competent one. Also, he is a businessman,so I guess he knows some basic economics-s.th Obama is seriously lacking.Not to forget-in theory,the US is embracing capitalism,isnt it? Ok-than, why was it the Obama administration bailing out failing Wallstreet companies with trillions of Dollars? Thats crony capitalism,aka socialism for the rich. One last thing-"right wing" is NOT the same in every country-in Germany f.e it would be a the NPD (a nazi party,rascist), in France the Front National (which is not rascist in contrast to the NPD) in Poland the Liga Poliskich Rodzin (also not rascist),in the US the Republicans are on the right-in Europe, they would be just conservatives ;-)
My birth certificate says that both my parents were born in Poland. Even in that fact you can see an example of Polish History. My mother's birthplace is actually Belarus today. Poland's history of conquest by neighboring countries, its changing borders, its history of life as a subjugated people is illustrated by such simple facts. In Yad ve Shem, the Holocaust museum in Israel, Poland's list of rescuers is larger than that of any other country conquered by the Nazis. Awesome, heroic people like Jan Karsky, Irene Sendler, Pope John Paul are examples of the human greatness that emerged within the Polish nation. Yet, my relatives,whenever they arrived in the US before or after WW2 told stories of their fear and the hatred of Poles toward them because they were Jews. I don't understand Polish attitudes toward Jews. If someone points out that the extreme hostility existed and was acted upon, many Poles rush to defend or justify themselves. When I taught English as a Second Language, my classes had Polish, Hispanic, and Asian students. Latin American students told me that the Poles don't like Jews because of what "the Jews, did to them." How do you know that I asked, because the Polish students had told them so. Nazis and Russians slaughtered Poles. The famous massacre of Polish military officers is a glaring example of their "inferior" status in the eyes of both fascist states. In that status Poles were no better off than Jews, and the Germans would have carried out their plans to reduce the number of Poles when they finished with the Jews.
ReplyDeleteIf Jews make remarks about Poles it is an expression of the anger and impotence many felt because they were always held "guilty" of something. Some cousins of my father were saved by Poles only to flee their hometown when they got there because they understood that they would be killed if they tried to stay. My relatives were worth far more than the kilo of sugar the Nazis offered. If Poles had done nothing out of fear, it would be easier to understand than handing Jews over to be slaughtered by Germans and their Polish collaborators.