tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post8762362126743184013..comments2024-03-11T08:31:04.022-04:00Comments on Bieganski the Blog: Bieganski on Steroids: Israel Friedlaender's "The Jews of Russia and Poland" D Goskahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-64438804736769759192012-08-29T09:26:05.915-04:002012-08-29T09:26:05.915-04:00It's even in Gone with the Wind. Mitchell keep...It's even in Gone with the Wind. Mitchell keeps talking about Gerald O'Hara's character being the product of his Irish "race" and Ellen's character being the product of her French "race." And Ashley as being racially unfit to survive. D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-76032339846928449362012-08-29T09:24:45.480-04:002012-08-29T09:24:45.480-04:00On the ubiquity and problems of "scientific r...On the ubiquity and problems of "scientific racism" we're in agreement.David A. Goldfarbhttp://www.davidagoldfarb.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-39203171830762808902012-08-29T08:30:56.874-04:002012-08-29T08:30:56.874-04:00MB that article about the Indian man naming his sh...MB that article about the Indian man naming his shop "Hitler" is hideous. That man ... needs to be reeducated. D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-18833231327304255432012-08-29T08:30:04.710-04:002012-08-29T08:30:04.710-04:00Now, as for context.
I think the best context to ...Now, as for context.<br /><br />I think the best context to understand Friedlaender's book politically are the three historical events mentioned: immigration, Zionism, and Poland's rebirth. <br /><br />The intellectual context is Scientific Racism. <br /><br />Strangely enough, even people who themselves were reduced to a low status by Scientific Racism bought into Scientific Racism. An example -- Roman Dmowski. American Scientific Racists despised Poles and yet Dmowski adopted Scientific Racist ideas, mores the pity. <br /><br />Even some Jews bought into Scientific Racism. Anzia Yezierska uses the vocabulary and ideas in her own writing, especially in "Salome of the Tenements." <br /><br />Friedlaender, too. he talks about Poles as a "race." He talks about Jewish marriages being "eugenic" (!) because Jews marry smart men. D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-36463688445044442362012-08-29T08:26:56.173-04:002012-08-29T08:26:56.173-04:00David! I thought that was you but I wasn't sur...David! I thought that was you but I wasn't sure. How wonderful! It's so cool to reconnect. <br /><br />Thank you! D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-16160274824490304132012-08-28T22:38:11.071-04:002012-08-28T22:38:11.071-04:00Yes, CONFLICTS ACROSS THE ATLANTIC is a fascinatin...Yes, CONFLICTS ACROSS THE ATLANTIC is a fascinating book. To read my review of it, please click on my name in this specific posting.<br />Mr. Jan Peczkishttp://www.amazon.com/review/RRJ7P1AR94JJP/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=8371886829&linkCode&nodeID&tagnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-80840270756585652102012-08-28T22:17:16.438-04:002012-08-28T22:17:16.438-04:00http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194930/HI...<br /><br /><br />http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2194930/HITLER-Jewish-groups-India-urge-owners-clothing-store-change-shops-name.html<br /><br />And the beat goes on. This is not directly related but may be of interest to blog readers. It ties in with some previous blog-mentions of certain seeming insensitivities to Western norms in Asia. Well, this guy claims he had no idea who "Hitler" was yet was able to make a very specially dotted "i" in his logo. <br />MB<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-34152745105134758042012-08-28T22:12:39.585-04:002012-08-28T22:12:39.585-04:00Sorry to hear of your publication woes, Danusha. ...Sorry to hear of your publication woes, Danusha. Don't change your name, and I don't know for whom Antony Polonsky is "insufficiently Jewish" or why it should matter, but for such persons, I'm probably "insufficiently Jewish" as well. If you recall, we were both learning Polish as a foreign language in the summer of 1987 I think it was, and we've met at the occasional conference over the years, so I know about your project, but hadn't heard the publication details.David A. Goldfarbhttp://www.davidagoldfarb.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-48316298017727489362012-08-28T21:25:57.086-04:002012-08-28T21:25:57.086-04:00Anonymous, please post under a real name. Thank yo...Anonymous, please post under a real name. Thank you.<br /><br />You ask, "I also don't get why we need to bring the Jewish people into this?" <br /><br />this blog is devoted to the book, "Bieganski: the Brute Polak Stereotype, Its Role in Polish-Jewish Relations and American Popular Culture." <br /><br />Given that that is our topic, we talk a lot about Poles and Jews.<br /><br />In any case, we also talk about stereotypes of Poles in American media, and in German-Nazi propaganda. <br /><br />We don't talk much about Russian stereotypes of Poles because they are less pertinent to the matter at hand, but we do know about them.<br /><br />BTW, "we" is me and the others who post here. <br /><br />Again, in the future, please post under a real name. D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-69375678310508605582012-08-28T21:21:32.000-04:002012-08-28T21:21:32.000-04:00MB -- as always, please read "Bieganski."...MB -- as always, please read "Bieganski." You will find more recent examples of stereotyping of Poles that more or less follows the pattern followed by Friedlaender. Readers often remark that the recent date of many examples and the sources -- the New York Times, for example -- shock them. <br /><br />If this topic interests you, you might also want to read "Conflicts Across the Atlantic" by Andrzej KapiszewskiD Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-64430943067048607892012-08-28T21:18:08.251-04:002012-08-28T21:18:08.251-04:00David, hope you find this comment. It is in reply ...David, hope you find this comment. It is in reply to you.<br /><br />You wrote:<br /><br />"I don't feel it is necessary to state the obvious"<br /><br />David, I don't know if you know anything about the story behind the publication of the book "Bieganski."<br /><br />It was finished in 2002. It was immediately accepted for publication by Ohio University Press. An editor there called it "wonderful" and I received a signed contract. Still have it, as a matter of fact. The contract promised a published book within a year.<br /><br />Instead, at the end of the year, I received a letter saying that the book could not be published. It was "controversial" for a Polish Catholic (me -- I'm hardly Polish -- born in the US of a Polish father and a Slovak mother; had to learn Polish as a foreign language. Not a typical Catholic. Active feminist and organizer for gay rights. Pro choice.) <br /><br />It was "controversial" for someone labeled as a Polish Catholic to even suggest that Jews stereotype Poles. <br /><br />The book went from publisher to publisher for years. The same story, over and over again. Editors would embrace it, promise publication, and then, when they got a whiff of controversy, would drop it.<br /><br />I was told, by established figures in academia, that I should change my name, publish under a false name, or take on a Jewish co-author. <br /><br />One publisher said they would publish the book if I could get a Jewish scholar to support it. <br /><br />i said a Jewish scholar did support "Bieganski," and that that scholar was Antony Polonsky, a truly great man. <br /><br />This publisher said that Antony Polonsky was not Jewish enough, because he didn't look obviously Jewish, and his name sounded too Polish.<br /><br />The point of these sob stories -- it is hugely controversial to say that Jews stereotype Poles. <br /><br />We haven't gotten there yet. We haven't gotten to the point where it is acceptable to say this, never mind obvious to say this. <br /><br />It is, in fact, still taboo to say this. It is still hugely risky to say this. <br /><br />That's exactly why it needs to be said. <br /><br />It is okay, though, to say really racist things about Poles. <br /><br />As for the rest of your post -- of course. Of course we talk about why these things happen. That's why "Bieganski" is hundreds of pages long. <br /><br />But, as this post demonstrates, that basic, first step -- even just acknowledging that this stereotyping is going on -- is still a taboo, risky step.<br /><br />it is a step that must be taken. <br />D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-22341010136912217092012-08-28T20:56:04.079-04:002012-08-28T20:56:04.079-04:00but, of course, everyone knows this, which is why ...but, of course, everyone knows this, which is why this entire discussion is a bit disingenous;<br /><br />I also don't get why we need to bring the Jewish people into this? Do you know what Russian authors wrote about Poles? Or, for that matter, German ones? Those stereotypes survived in the US as well &, historically, have been much more harmful to Poles;Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-67154277168038075772012-08-28T20:52:56.192-04:002012-08-28T20:52:56.192-04:00These "things" happen when:
1) there is...These "things" happen when:<br /><br />1) there is no interbreeding b/t two groups of people and a desire to keep others out or keep itself separate (you can put the blame finger in any direction); and<br /><br />2) one group occupies a distinct and, in some ways, privileged, niche in mainstream society, while the other represents [90]% of the population (counting Ukrainians Belorussians here b/c the issues were largely the same); <br /><br />mainstream is relevant here b/c if you're not mainstream you can be separate and pretty much do what you want; notice that no one raves about the injustices perpetrated by the Amish (well almost no one);<br /><br />item 2 may also occur without friction (or less friction) if the "[90]%" is itself divided among various groups (vide US) such that various bogeymen may be invoked for various groups and alliances become ever changing;<br /><br />Put differently, preserving one's ethnic identity and playing an important (prominent, visible, whatever you like) role in mainstream society are incompatible with <br />avoiding ire unless other groups are a cause of even more ire;<br /><br />as always, indiscriminate sex is the solutionAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-21943082860072550242012-08-28T20:41:01.526-04:002012-08-28T20:41:01.526-04:00ahhh...... the Church had to restrain the savage h...ahhh...... the Church had to restrain the savage hordes - of course; after all it is a "Catholic" Church whereas the apemen are just virulent hateAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-84734703881058713792012-08-28T20:17:03.682-04:002012-08-28T20:17:03.682-04:00Evidently, the 3 volume books set that I had revie...Evidently, the 3 volume books set that I had reviewed, authored by Dubnow and Friedlaender, had been an expanded and slightly more recent version of the Friedlaender book that you cite. <br /><br />I have reviewed a whole series of books about Jews in tsarist Russia, and formed a Listmania about them in the recent past. To see it, please click on my name in this specific posting.<br /> Mr. Jan Peczkishttp://www.amazon.com/Jews-and-Judaism-in-Tsarist-Russia/lm/R1R99PB6TBRGTW/ref=cm_lm_byauthor_title_fullnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-36077872223123301662012-08-28T19:36:43.930-04:002012-08-28T19:36:43.930-04:00Thanks to Danusha for the book update and to the g...Thanks to Danusha for the book update and to the good hunting of Otto to find it. <br /><br />Its clear by the lively debate and evident new readers finding the blog that the topic was of high value. <br /><br />Is there any way of knowing the number of books that were printed? Has anyone researched for contemporary reference? In any case it was published at an ideal moment to have an impact on opinions of Poland at a critical moment in history, making its vile slurs all the worse. <br /><br />MB <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-42397552800709847472012-08-28T19:19:22.255-04:002012-08-28T19:19:22.255-04:00Perhaps I don't feel it is necessary to state ...Perhaps I don't feel it is necessary to state the obvious--that any racial stereotyping is immoral. I think you know that I believe that, and I know that you believe that, but at the same time, I don't believe that things are so simple. We can say there was wrong done on many sides and stop at that, but it is more meaningful to me to understand why these things happened and what the alternatives were.David A. Goldfarbhttp://www.davidagoldfarb.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-11525380549333660762012-08-28T18:57:19.425-04:002012-08-28T18:57:19.425-04:00David, I applaud your not being put off by my blun...David, I applaud your not being put off by my blunt approach to your post. <br /><br />Let me invite you to do something.<br /><br />You say, David, that the author you cite takes "an interesting and productive approach."<br /><br />Let me invite you to take what I consider to be an interesting and productive approach.<br /><br />Let me read you state, "Friedlaender's book is racist. His racism is not random. It is part of a pattern that goes back centuries and persists in 2012. Friedlaender disseminates what has been called the Bieganski stereotype of Poles as something like animals. Friedlaender does that quite consciously, selling the image to American, Protestant, anti-Catholic and anti-Slavic readers. he does it to advance three causes: the embrace of Jewish immigrants in the US, the Zionist project in Palestine, and the American overseeing of Poland's rebirth. <br /><br />His doing so is wrong and immoral. In fact, any use of the Brute Polak stereotype is immoral." <br /><br />No, David, I don't expect you to say that. <br /><br />But I would have liked to have seen something like that before you began attempting to change the focus of the discussion and to trivialize the stereotyping of Poles as animals to achieve political ends, regardless of how that stereotyping affected Poles at a very vulnerable time in their history.<br /><br />Me, David? I am on record as condemning stereotyping and racism again and again and again and again.<br /><br />You can find my statements against racism and stereotyping in my published work, on this blog, and all over the web.<br /><br />I do this because racism and stereotyping are wrong.<br /><br />I do not try to change the subject. I do not trivialize. I just condemn them, no matter the environment, no matter the risk, no matter the potential loss or gain. <br /><br /><br /><br />D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-80709393301127433602012-08-28T18:52:51.693-04:002012-08-28T18:52:51.693-04:00Mr. Koralewski,
One interesting argument that Bri...Mr. Koralewski,<br /><br />One interesting argument that Brian Porter-Szűcs makes is that the church hierarchy promoted anti-Jewish boycotts using antisemitic language as a way of redirecting the impulse toward anti-Jewish violence on the part of less-educated parishioners, using one species of racism to prevent a worse species of racism. The message was arguably, "yes, support your own, don't buy from them, but don't hurt anyone."David A. Goldfarbhttp://www.davidagoldfarb.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-14059318832496735882012-08-28T18:47:41.916-04:002012-08-28T18:47:41.916-04:00On the other hand, these stereotypes persist, of c...On the other hand, these stereotypes persist, of course. recently at a party I was informed that "the Poles killed all the smart people" in WWII. I replied "apparently, however, not all the obnoxious ones". The lady who previously found it interesting to talk to me when she found out I was Polish (the conversation starter on her part was "oh, how interesting, my housekeeper was Polish.") did not speak to me for the entire evening after that; she only cringed when at the end of the evening, I observed that "we must do this again some time".<br /><br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-65840838735199503922012-08-28T18:42:41.915-04:002012-08-28T18:42:41.915-04:00yes, you should read some of the German rhetoric f...yes, you should read some of the German rhetoric from the same time. Mostly in agreement with the above - just replace Jewish with German.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-91491335345387488072012-08-28T18:22:13.647-04:002012-08-28T18:22:13.647-04:00"Because of this lousy leadership, Poland is ..."Because of this lousy leadership, Poland is "destitute," where "the only seeds of civilization were planted and cultivated by Germans and Jews." <br /><br />hahahaha....... how amusing; how lovely to fast forward another 25 years!!!!!<br /><br />You see the same venomous hatred today when certain people write books such as "What's wrong with Kansas?" What's "wrong" with Kansas is what's (still) right with America.<br /><br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-38645416480057465102012-08-28T18:20:13.019-04:002012-08-28T18:20:13.019-04:00Danusha,
My point is that given the racist rheto...Danusha, <br /><br />My point is that given the racist rhetoric on all sides in this period, it is unsurprising that some Jewish intellectuals were not immune to it, and indeed if they had been, it would have been remarkable. For instance, if we put Friedlaender's statements alongside some of the examples of rhetoric that Brian Porter-Szűcs cites in his recent research on anti-semitism in the Polish Catholic church, we would both lament the racial stereotyping on both sides, and we might try to understand why, in the even broader context of 1000 years of Polish-Jewish coexistence, there had been such low points.<br /><br />Weeks' article does try to do that, and I think that's an interesting and productive approach.David A. Goldfarbhttp://www.davidagoldfarb.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-63981477002294848682012-08-28T17:58:59.991-04:002012-08-28T17:58:59.991-04:00Mr. Goldfarb please ask yourself, why were there a...Mr. Goldfarb please ask yourself, why were there anti-Jewish boycotts? Perhaps because they had control over many of the middle-class trade shops, that Polish peasants were attempting to break into. This isn't "antisemitism" (although undoubtedly many such as yourself are so quick to jump on that word) but simple economic competition.<br /><br />Brian Koralewski (Brian Lewski)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-4295298036516756552012-08-28T17:18:28.581-04:002012-08-28T17:18:28.581-04:00Hello, David A. Goldfarb. Thank you for your post ...Hello, David A. Goldfarb. Thank you for your post and welcome to the blog.<br /><br />I'm afraid I don't see the value of your comment. Sorry for being so blunt.<br /><br />The book in question is racist. It epitomizes a powerful stereotype. This stereotype has done much harm. It needs to be exposed and refuted. It has not been. My own book is a lonely voice in a troubled field. <br /><br />You appear to be attempting to excuse stereotyping (while saying that it is not excusable.) <br /><br />Look -- every cultural product has, as you put it, context. So what? How does that context lessen stereotyping, or the damage that stereotypes do? <br /><br />In fact, that context *does not* lessen stereotyping. <br /><br />Let me give you an example. Regular readers of this blog know that I was crippled for life after an ugly encounter with a powerful African American professor at Indiana University. <br /><br />Guess what? In spite of that -- I do not allow people to use the n word in my presence.<br /><br />Context? Plenty of context. I was physically damaged and financially ruined by a vicious racist who happened to be black.<br /><br />That does not justify stereotyping.<br /><br />get it? <br /><br />Probably every reader of this blog knows that the Polish szlachta were very imperfect people, too many of whom did contribute to Poland's downfall. <br /><br />We all know, or at least I hope we all know, that there was anti-Jewish prejudice and violence at this time. <br /><br />How does one species of hate excuse or lessen another species of hate? <br /><br />Or am I missing your point? <br /><br />I hope you can forgive me for being so blunt. And I do welcome you and your comments. I just fail to see the value in this one. I'm open to being educated. D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.com