tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post6851551764948431871..comments2024-03-11T08:31:04.022-04:00Comments on Bieganski the Blog: Protesting "Maus" by Dr. Linda Kornasky D Goskahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-12932781368758150212016-02-04T02:33:54.799-05:002016-02-04T02:33:54.799-05:00Folloup: continuing my search, I found a very deta...Folloup: continuing my search, I found a very detailed critique with some of the elements I wanted to learn, at http://www.kpk-toronto.org/2014/docs/maus_2014_why_it_should_not_be_taught.pdf<br /><br />I am not sure I agree 100% (for example the author emphasizes that *some* kapos were Polish but *many* were Jewish, words calculated to imply the latter was substantially more prominent), overall it's very persuasive in many ways, and a good read. Far more than stereotyping "progressives".<br /><br />Perhaps if your software allows, you could put a link to that or similar articles near the start of the dialogue, to aid readers like me who are coming here to better understand something (without already having a position).<br /><br />Thanks.Zephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-54464539586548675582016-02-04T01:47:10.212-05:002016-02-04T01:47:10.212-05:00Interesting. I am neither of Polish or Jewish roo...Interesting. I am neither of Polish or Jewish roots, and only arrived here by searching for "anti-Maus protest" when I saw reference (in a review of MetaMaus) to such protest existing and wondered what that was about. I see that most folks here are immersed in the struggle, and thought some perspective from somebody with no vested interest (other than wanting a better world).<br /><br />I clearly hear that using pigs for the Poles in Maus strikes you as a negative stereotype, and that you feel that Poland has been misportrayed as anti-Semitic - in that work and elsewhere. My feedback is that a good counterpoint (for me) would be a fair and factual assessment of anti-Semitism in Poland then and now. Not just isolated anecdotes of individuals who were anti-semitic or very kind to the Jews (people can always argue any side of anything with chosen anecdotes), but something more substantial.<br /><br />I hear some resentment that Germany seems to be in higher regard than Poland among many Jews, which could seem inappropriate given that the Nazi party was centered there. However I think that Germany has made a lot of effort to admit their very real and terrible role in WWII, and an effort to change and to some degree atone for that. If Poland has likewise come fully clean about WWII anti-semitism (to whatever degree it existed), and their efforts to change and atone for that, then that hasn't yet gotten as much publicity.<br /><br />Alas, much of the dialogue here is not very persuasive - it seems more about complaining and protesting and feeling victimized, than about owning up to any real past problems and demonstrating how much change there has been. Again, this is not my special interest and I don't have a vested interest on either side, I'm just letting you know "how it comes across", so that you might tune your presentations (or even the attitudes underneath) to more effectively reach people with a more positive and factual message about Poland then and now.<br /><br />In other words, endless complaints about stereotypes have less traction than demonstrating the non-stereotyped truth.<br /><br />One other note - it's ironic - and undermining to your cause - to see people using very hostile and broad stereotypes of "progressives", as a way to protest being stereotyped. Not only are there several examples of that in this dialogue, but there was no rush by others to correct such stereotyping. That sets a very poor tone, and discredits any protest movement. I am NOT assuming that everybody who opposes negative stereotypes of Poles is like that - but I'm wondering why the movement isn't more self-correcting in explicitly "not buying into" (ie: challenging) the anti-progressive stereotypes. If I had seen that, it would have given me more confidence in your movement (and thus probably made it more effective in changing stereotypes among a broader population as well).<br /><br />Good luck! I am not strongly familiar with Poland, but I certainly would be very interested in visiting if I were traveling in Europe, primarily because I've often heard about the long history of the arts and culture there. I hold no negative stereotypes about Poland (that I am aware of). I wish you well, and I'd like to see more mutual respect among many cultures. I'm trying to suggest ways you can indeed make your message more effective, not trying to shut you down.Zephnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-62082629409979430162012-10-09T15:24:04.991-04:002012-10-09T15:24:04.991-04:00Hello Jan, you and Danusha Goska are courageous in...Hello Jan, you and Danusha Goska are courageous in entering this arena, as the whole thing is so weighted against us that I won't even bother.<br /><br />But I do think that we need to keep telling our story, supporting those who do, and continually drawing attention to the double standards, which get more blatant by the day.<br /><br />I wouldn't want us to do what Art Speigelman has done. Sue Knight's Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597157298218651144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-74221825608017680062012-10-08T22:03:43.688-04:002012-10-08T22:03:43.688-04:00Not publishable by WHOM? Certainly by conventional...Not publishable by WHOM? Certainly by conventional academic circles. But, in my fantasy, were Poles resolute and united, they could fund the printing of such a cartoon, and get it circulated and noticed. By unflatteringly depicting a protected ethnic group, it would cause consciousness-raising about how Poles are insulted by MAUS.<br /><br />Once the other side would start to howl, having tasted its own medicine, we could then say, "Stop portraying us as pigs, and we will stop portraying you as rats. Is it a deal?" <br /><br />Also, referring to the MAUS portrayal of Poles as well-fed Nazi collaborator pigs, and, in the counter-MAUS, the Judenrat collaborators as dirty rats, we could say, "Stop lying about us, and we will stop telling the truth about you. Is it a deal?"<br />Mr. Jan Peczkishttp://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3Q04XXGGED746/ref=cm_aya_bb_listsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-59488544512705167672012-10-08T19:16:56.712-04:002012-10-08T19:16:56.712-04:00The cartoonist to do this parody would probably be...The cartoonist to do this parody would probably be Ted Rall. He was brave enough in 1999 to publish an opinion piece critical of Spiegelman: <br />http://www.villagevoice.com/1999-07-27/news/the-king-of-comix/<br /><br />But I agree with Sue. A comic book that would unflatteringly depict an ethnic group protected in public discourse would not be publishable! Ask yourself if, for another example, a Borat type of film set in Saudi Arabia or in Nigeria would have been considered acceptable? (Danusha, thank you for your insightful analysis of that film and other films in "Bieganski." Before I read your book, I wasn't clear about why Borat bothered me so much--or for that matter, why I've always liked "The Apartment." I thought I just liked Shirley MacLaine's performance.) Linda Kornaskynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-75191134676670461862012-10-08T15:48:58.397-04:002012-10-08T15:48:58.397-04:00I think that Hanna meant that comic book about rat...I think that Hanna meant that comic book about rats, snakes and mongooses. Great idea. In Poland we had comic books about Auschwitz. Nicely done in my opinion. And I must say that I didin't like "Maus". So sluttish. Word "piggish" comes to mind. Link below.<br />http://www.episodesfromauschwitz.pl/en/?id=2Łukasznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-73595923798788035412012-10-08T14:14:51.543-04:002012-10-08T14:14:51.543-04:00Did you get any response Danusha? Did you get any response Danusha? Sue Knight's Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597157298218651144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-11781046889716470492012-10-07T22:18:20.625-04:002012-10-07T22:18:20.625-04:00Thanks. My name is Peczkis. Please rephrase what y...Thanks. My name is Peczkis. Please rephrase what you have said--I am unsure what you are driving at.Mr. Jan Peczkishttp://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3Q04XXGGED746/ref=cm_cr_dp_auth_rev?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReviewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-11126359656605001892012-10-07T16:37:35.213-04:002012-10-07T16:37:35.213-04:00I had meant to say "treat" rather than &...I had meant to say "treat" rather than "teach"... but it seems appropriate in the context of "Maus" being taught as a textbook. Sue Knight's Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597157298218651144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-66329156951404330402012-10-07T16:29:16.140-04:002012-10-07T16:29:16.140-04:00Mr Peczewski, I LOVE it-how do we find s.o wo can ...Mr Peczewski, I LOVE it-how do we find s.o wo can draw well?Hannanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-36070937286525847272012-10-07T14:28:44.587-04:002012-10-07T14:28:44.587-04:00Interestingly the Inspired Scriptures tell us that...Interestingly the Inspired Scriptures tell us that hell is one place Satan never is, never was, and never will be.<br /><br />It is so important to teach the truth. The Christian Greek Scriptures ask us to teach everyone with love and respect, especially our brothers and sisters within the congregation.<br /><br />Wouldn't that rule out calling them "swine".<br /><br />I am just wondering if Polish/Polonian Catholics have ever taken this up with their local priests, with the Church hierarchy - politely, of course?<br /><br />Sue Knight's Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597157298218651144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-86700691947756696172012-10-07T11:08:53.317-04:002012-10-07T11:08:53.317-04:00Hi Linda
I had a similar experience a few years ag...Hi Linda<br />I had a similar experience a few years ago. At a party at my sister's house, a guest I was speaking with mentioned that her father was "from Poland". As I expressed my delight and interest, she interrupted me, saying, "Oh, he won't go back to Poland". I realized that this was code for his being Jewish. Like you, I was blindsided by her remark and did not have a comeback. A moment later, she spoke in a rapturous tone about the Rhine cruise from which her parents had just returned. If not for the fact that she was my sister's guest and neighbor, I would have pointed out the irony of her father traveling to Germany but not Poland. In retrospect, this was a "teachable moment" (to myself): people like her do not respect anyone who turns the other cheek, and I resolved to challenge remarks like this in the future. We cannot allow denigration of Poland to go unanswered.Yvonnenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-49459421254286147242012-10-07T09:44:57.777-04:002012-10-07T09:44:57.777-04:00On the subject of hell, note that evangelicals bel...On the subject of hell, note that evangelicals believe that the Bible affirms that if a person truly believes in Jesus Christ as his/her Savior, they are saved forever and thereby freed from ever fearing hell again.<br /><br />As for Catholic colleges, many of them are notorious for departing from Catholic teachings and actively supporting things which are anti-Catholic. Nothing new there.Mr. Jan Peczkishttp://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/A3Q04XXGGED746/ref=cm_cr_dp_auth_rev?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReviewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-43863485026252997682012-10-07T02:43:45.128-04:002012-10-07T02:43:45.128-04:00Hello Jan and Brian, I know what you mean - to try...Hello Jan and Brian, I know what you mean - to try to really highlight the double standards. But wouldn't such a book be unpublishable - as "Maus" would have been, had Art Spiegelman got his PC-underwear in a twist and pictured a PC-protected minority as "swine"?<br /><br />Personally, I would like us to stay on the high moral ground. Our Creator asks us to treat all with respect - and the Golden Rule says that we should treat others as we ourselves would wish to be treated.<br /><br />And I note that the author of "Maus" treated his Jewish characters with respect, picturing them as mice, not rats - which, in cartoon terms, is perfectly acceptable.<br /><br />I would have had no problem with his drawing us as mice. <br /><br />But it does occur to me that we could do this. Is this book still being taught in Catholic Colleges? If so, then I would like to ask some direct questions of the Catholic hierarchy,and those Colleges, about why they are teaching and promoting a book that depicts their fellow Catholics as "swine". And, in doing so, I would refer directly, verse by verse, to the standards set out in the Christian Greek Scriptures.<br /><br />I am not a Catholic. I voted with my feet on the matter many years ago. Their teaching of hellfire torment put me off the whole idea of God and the Bible for many many years. It was the beauty of the world, the beauty of the creation, that told me of its Creator and made me search for Him.<br /><br />However, I can still ask I suppose - as I am a Polonian - if the Catholic Church is teaching a book that depicts me, and my dear aged father, as "swine".<br />Sue Knight's Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597157298218651144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-17430215488803037612012-10-06T20:03:27.167-04:002012-10-06T20:03:27.167-04:00I am all for that Mr. Peczkis!I am all for that Mr. Peczkis!Brian Koralewski (Brian Lewski)noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-8244238385933843892012-10-06T16:43:02.975-04:002012-10-06T16:43:02.975-04:00This discussion about MAUS keeps repeating itself ...This discussion about MAUS keeps repeating itself at different places and forums. Polish complaints are chauvinistically brushed aside. <br /><br />Here is my idea: Instead of complaining, fight fire with fire. Publish a "counter-MAUS" and publicize it as much as possible, and then see how much Spiegelman and other Polonophobes like it. <br /><br />This alternative cartoon would feature clean rats, dirty rats, snakes, and mongooses. The dirty rats help the snakes find and eat clean rats, and then the snakes also eat the dirty rats. All along, the mongooses are fighting and killing some of the snakes.<br /><br />In this counter-MAUS cartoon, the snakes are the Germans, the mongooses are the Poles, and dirty rats are Jews who collaborated with the Germans (such as the Jewish Ghetto Police), while the clean rats are the multitudes of innocent Jews who fell victim to the Germans.<br /><br />Provocative? Certainly. But this would clearly drive the point home about how offensive MAUS is to Poles.<br /><br />Well, that is my idea. Take it or leave it. Mr. Jan Peczkishttp://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/listmania/byauthor/A3Q04XXGGED746/ref=cm_aya_bb_listsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-75629870949230360222012-10-06T15:30:31.000-04:002012-10-06T15:30:31.000-04:00Stalin and his Red Army, and all his willing execu...Stalin and his Red Army, and all his willing executioners, are still "good guys" in the Official version of history. Which speaks volumes about "the world" - and makes me happy to try to be no part of it. But if the world isn't bothered by the millions upon millions of dead left by Stalin, doesn't that show that the vilification of all things Polish has got nothing whatsoever to do with anything Poland has done, or not done?Sue Knight's Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597157298218651144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-51057055763109538332012-10-06T14:44:04.822-04:002012-10-06T14:44:04.822-04:00Danusha, when I read the parts of your book about ...Danusha, when I read the parts of your book about this illogical transfer of blame from "civilized" Germany which Jews have forgiven, to "brutish" Poland, which many Jews consider permanently and essentially anti-Semitic, I thought immediately about what my Jewish colleague had said. Linda Kornaskynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-71434872944894491592012-10-06T13:25:18.208-04:002012-10-06T13:25:18.208-04:00Dr. Kornasky, I would like to know,what do You mak...Dr. Kornasky, I would like to know,what do You make of such things like <br /><br />http://www.krakowpost.com/article/1218<br />A Jewish (Atheist)-Communist judicial murderess (one of many,the IPN established that around 40% of all members of the stalinist "security" forces had a (n atheist) Jewish background)<br /><br />and the fact that last year, Israel errected a monument commemorating the "glorious" Red Army (there is NO one for f.e the Armia Krajowa/Zegota)<br /><br />(Disclaimer: I dont care about the background of anyone, everyone should be judged individually and with regard to his/her character.Also,no one should be given a free ride because of his/her background).Hannanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-41040308030240076382012-10-06T10:02:04.087-04:002012-10-06T10:02:04.087-04:00Well, the scorn of Poles I have encountered from,I...<br />Well, the scorn of Poles I have encountered from,I am very sorry to say this!,Americans is incredible. I mean,did Pulaski and Kościuszko not fight for American independence? Also, Kościuszko was a real "Polish rascist"-in his testament,he wanted the land and goods the American Congress bestowed on him for his efforts to be sold and the money used to buy slaves and set them free (as we say in Polish "za wolność naszą i waszą"-he thought,as a "rascist" that freedom was for everyone.<br />Also, does Spiegelmann plan to come to Europe so day in the near future? I would like to thank him in person- I have been called a "Polish pig" be Jewish persons once and think this merit in promulgating Nazi German propaganda should not go unnoticed. Perhaps s.o should establish a foundation which will, once a year, award the Joseph Goebbels Award for Journalistic Excellence. Just kidding-I am from a very philosemitic family so being abused by Jewish people hurts me twice. I do not get it a 100%-is this s.th passive-agressive? Like, abusing Poles to make them react and than say-Look, we told you so! (see Debbie "this is NO photoshop picture" Schlussel)<br />Hannanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-43637480621375496022012-10-06T09:26:48.607-04:002012-10-06T09:26:48.607-04:00Sorry, new contact person at Wylie Agency is Rebec...Sorry, new contact person at Wylie Agency is Rebecca Nagel. D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-49174824011208178672012-10-06T09:25:22.792-04:002012-10-06T09:25:22.792-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-91549714963582026782012-10-06T09:09:12.183-04:002012-10-06T09:09:12.183-04:00Thanks Danusha, it would be great if we could get ...Thanks Danusha, it would be great if we could get these issues addressed. The obvious question I would want to ask his literary agent/publisher is would they promote/publish a book that depicted African-Americans or Hispanic-Americans as "swine". A simple yes or no answer would do.<br />Sue Knight's Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12597157298218651144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-34907401528808611362012-10-06T08:35:26.935-04:002012-10-06T08:35:26.935-04:00Linda, you cite a Jew who was eager to visit Austr...Linda, you cite a Jew who was eager to visit Austria and Germany but considered travel to Poland taboo. <br /><br />As you know, because you've read the book, that theme is addressed in "Bieganski." "Danielle" was openly contemptuous of Poles and Poland but had no problem with Germans or Germany. Danielle felt so strongly about this that she didn't want *any* Jews to live in Poland. Germany, though? Just fine. D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8471082069031980581.post-91856293397412497752012-10-06T08:27:18.901-04:002012-10-06T08:27:18.901-04:00Sue, you mention wanting to contact Spiegelman. I ...Sue, you mention wanting to contact Spiegelman. I tried to verify his "squeal" quote directly, but he would not speak to me. I ended up communicating with an aid at his literary agent. Jordyn Ostroff. Jordyn Ostroff is no longer with the agency. I just tried to write to Angelica Baker to see if she can contact him. If so, I'll invite him to respond to our posts here. <br /><br />I also wrote to Konstanty Gebert, who objected to my objections to Maus as quoted in the Tygodnik Powszechny article about Bieganski.<br /><br />I'm doing this because I want to offer those who support Maus to speak to us here. I'm interested in hearing their point of view. D Goskahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09353495585591945881noreply@blogger.com